Archive for January, 2009

URL for Royal Institution of Naval Architects (UK) (fwd, FYI)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Thu Nov 13 10:47:46 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom3.ecnet.net: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:45:40 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom3
>To: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: URL for Royal Institution of Naval Architects (UK) (fwd, FYI)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
> >From MarHst-L:
>
>http://www.rina.org.uk/
>which is about as direct as they could get!
>
>David

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US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Thu Nov 13 22:41:23 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom3.ecnet.net: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:40:24 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom3
>To: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>———- Forwarded message ———-
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:24:13 -0800
>From: Mike Potter
>To: Multiple recipients of list MILHST-L
>
>Army official apologizes for calling Marines “extremists”
>_________________________________________________________
>Copyright =A9 1997 Nando.net
>Copyright =A9 1997 The Associated Press
>
>… so I can’t reproduce it.
>
> I watched the movie “The Rock,” … with Nicholas Cage, Sean
>Connery. The villain was … of course … an embittered Marine
>VN vet officer.
>
> In the recent Robert Redford/Michelle Pfeiffer film “Up Close
>and Personal” Redford dies at the end a hero’s death … the victim
>of an ambush … after concern that the “South Command” is trying to
>prevent/disrupt the handover of the Panama Canal.
>
> In a recent READER’S DIGEST, there is a cartoon … a guy comes
>home in his uniform carrying 1 bag of groceries.
>
> His wife says, “I *told* you not to go to the supermarket
>wearing your uniform!”
>
> … and people seem to resent me using my veteran’s preference,
>when I go in for job interviews.
>
> Nice people.
>
>Lou
> Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
> www.wiu.edu/users/mslrc/

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US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Nov 14 00:22:30 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:21:27 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>Some additional thoughts:
>
>1. I believe her remark was no spontaneous “accident,” but a deliberate
> act of provocation and/or intimidation … toward the Marines. If you
> remember, it was the Marines who stood up the strongest and clearest
> against the Administration’s accomodation of homosexuals into the
> service … and …
>
>2. with the campaign corruption … foreign/enemy payoffs … investiga-
> tion beaten, President Clinton now feels free to do what he has
> always wanted to … <50>> investigation gave new credibility to allegations about Ron Brown taking
> commercial bribe money from the North Vietnamese. Brown, of course, is
> buried in Arlington with our other national, historical heroes. He left
> the country in a different way.)
>
>3. I believe BC thinks he can play off the Army against the Marines. We
> will see if Honor is still an Army value. Has the Army succumbed to
> such/lesser temptations in the past?
>
>4. AND this is only going to get worse and worse. Clinton is just the
> (comically) corrupt and clumsy tip of the Vietnam generation iceberg.
> Those students who didn’t serve went on to higher degrees and now hold
> key positions in academia, media, politics, government, ….
>
>5. No matter how anti-military (and anti-Marine) public policy,
> propaganda, and opinion has been in the past, *I* don’t think (the)
> national security (community) has ever been as threatened as it is
> now … and from within … and the academic, media, legal, political,
> etc.) professions have never been so arrogant … and unaccountable.
> Unlike previous generations, the VN generation is a “revolutionary”
> generation that tasted the thrill of the power of the mob … defying/
> mocking/defiling “authority” institutions … and symbols. They think
> they have won … and aren’t at all conscience-stricken about the
> betrayal of the Indochinese (to holocaust) … and our own war dead …
> which that caused.
>
>This iceberg has historical roots … and it is out of control. Only
> reality checks like Saddam Hussein and Kim Il Sung Jr. could give pause,
> but even they will be rationalized … and more will be betrayed …
> given the status quo.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

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US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Nov 14 00:27:20 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:26:51 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>cc: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Louis R. Coatney wrote:
> > In a recent READER’S DIGEST, there is a cartoon … a guy comes
> > home in his uniform carrying 1 bag of groceries.
> >
> > His wife says,
>–> “$100.00!! I *told* you not to go to the
> > supermarket wearing your uniform!”
>
>OK, I omitted the $100.00. 🙂
>
>Lou

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US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Nov 14 00:27:23 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:26:51 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>cc: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: US Army official calls US Marines “extremists” (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Louis R. Coatney wrote:
> > In a recent READER’S DIGEST, there is a cartoon … a guy comes
> > home in his uniform carrying 1 bag of groceries.
> >
> > His wife says,
>–> “$100.00!! I *told* you not to go to the
> > supermarket wearing your uniform!”
>
>OK, I omitted the $100.00. 🙂
>
>Lou

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Warships sunk during Guadalcanal

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Nov 19 20:22:37 1997
>X-Sender: tcrobi@pop.mindspring.com
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:25:01 -0500
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: Tom Robison
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Tom Lewis wrote:
>
> >According to an article in this week’s Navy News (Australia), the hulks are
> >leaking oil and killing off local fishlife and coral. The government there
> >are appealling to the governments who “own” the ships for help.
>
>This brings up the age old question, who “owns” old wrecks. Once a wreck is
>abandoned in international waters, it is fair game for salvage.
>
>But some of these ships are in Solomon Island waters. Are they still
>considered fair game for salvage, are they property of the Solomons by
>default, or do they still belong to the country who caused them to be there?
>
>Which brings up another question. If the US and Japan are responsible, are
>they responsible for their own ships, or each other’s? I.e., the US caused
>the Japanese ships to be sunk, and the Japanese caused the Allied ships to
>be sunk. So, are we responsible for bringing up the Japanese ships, and
>vice-versa?
>
>Still sounds to me like a scam to fleece Uncle Sugar. How much oil can be
>leaking? Yes, I know, the Arizona is still fouling Pearl Harbor, but how
>serious can the pollution problem be in The Slot?
>
>
>
>Tom Robison
>Ossian, Indiana
>tcrobi@mindspring.com

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New search for Atlantis (forwarded message) (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Nov 14 12:59:29 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom3.ecnet.net: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:56:16 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom3
>To: Mahan@microwrks.com, consim-l@listserv.uni-c.dk
>Subject: New search for Atlantis (forwarded message) (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>I suppose this isn’t *exactly* naval/Marine history, but you’ve got
> to wonder what happened to the Atlantan navy. 🙂 … sort of
> a Karakatoan eruption of the Rabaul Volcano in my Guadalcanal
> game, I suppose. 🙂
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>
>———- Forwarded message ———-
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:06:06 +0000
>From: “Dr M.H. Evans”
>To: MARHST-L@post.queensu.ca
>
>Dear marhst-l subscribers: this message was sent to me personally
>with a request that I forward it. This I do, without comment, and
>please do not send any comments to me! I guess it comes under the
>heading of marine history, though I am not sure what Metahistory is.
>———————————————————————
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:09:15 +0300
>From: Viatcheslav Koudriavtsev
>Organization: Institute of Metahistory
>To: Martin Evans
>Subject: Information about expedition planned
>
>Dear Dr. Evans,
>
>We would like to inform you that the Institute of Metahistory, an
>autonomous non-profit organization, and P.P. Shirshov Institute of
>Oceanology of Russian Academy of Sciences within the framework of the
>Agreement on Cooperation between them are beginning preparations for the
>expedition planned for the summer of 1998, with the aim of verifying the
>hypothesis suggesting that Plato’s Atlantis was located on the Celtic
>Shelf, with the capital city in the region of contemporary Little Sole
>Bank 130 nm to the south-west of England, and submerged as a result of
>glacio-eustatic rising of the sea level and compensatory isostatic
>subsidence of that area at the end of the last glaciation, precisely at
>the time Plato spoke of in “Timaeus” and “Critias”.
>
>The hypothesis was put forward on the basis of analysis of descriptions
>of Atlantis in Plato’s dialogues and their comparison with the modern
>data of geology, oceanography and paleoclimatology. Its latest (fourth)
>version can be found at http://www.imh.ru/atlan4_e.htm at the Institute
>of Metahistory Web site. The basic distinction of this version from the
>previous ones consists in that it contains excerpts from Diodor of
>Sicily about Atlantis and the paleogeographic aspect of the hypothesis
>is more profoundly elaborated.
>
>At the moment, an application is being drawn up for conducting marine
>research in the British exclusive economic zone that must be submitted
>to the Aviation and Maritime Department of the Foreign and Commonwealth
>Office of the U.K. in accordance with the existing procedure and the
>International Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982.
>
>The area of intended marine research is the Little Sole Bank and the
>adjacent area, approximately within 48 d 16′ – 48 d 29′ N and 8 d 46′ –
>8 d 59′ W. The expedition is planned to be conducted on one of research
>vessels of P.P. Shirshov Institute of Oceanology of Russian Academy of
>Sciences and the marine scientific research will consist in the
>following:
>
>1. A reconnaissance bathymetric survey using an echo-sounder for
>obtaining more precise data on the relief of the Little Sole Bank and
>the adjacent area with a view to singling out the zones whose relief
>makes them the most likely locations for finding the remains of a
>material culture;
>
>2. A sweeping survey of the seafloor, using a high-resolution (0.1-0.3
>m) side scan sonar, with a view to identifying microgeomorphological
>structures on the seafloor surface that might be of artificial origin
>and could be the remains of stone buildings, walls, moats, ditches etc.;
>
>3. A survey of the bottom using a profiler for obtaining a vertical
>section of the seafloor up to 5 metres deep, with a view to possibly
>identifying the microrelief details buried by the Holocene sediments,
>and identifying the ancient coastal features;
>
>4. Carrying out with a towed underwater video camera of concurrent
>visual inspection and video recording of the seafloor and/or exploration
>of sectors of the seafloor on which targets will be identified which are
>of special interest, with a remote operated vehicle;
>
>5. Magnetometric survey in order to obtain data on the local magnetic
>anomalies, which could be linked to the traces of the use of metals, as
>well as fired clays.
>
>All research data of the intended expedition will be collected in
>international formats and will be made available to the U.K. as the
>coastal state.
>
>If you or your Department are interested in receiving these data or
>would like to participate in the cruise on board of the ship personally
>or by adding some devices to the research equipment, please, let us know
>of your wish in writing by post, so that we may take it into account in
>planning the cruise and the ports of call and embarkation, and in
>drawing up the application. If you have some additional questions about
>the technical details of the intended research, you can contact Dr. Lev
>R. Merklin (lmerklin@chip.sio.rssi.ru), Chief of Seismography
>Laboratory, who is in charge of the project from P.P. Shirshov Institute
>of Oceanology. Letters should be sent to the following addresses:
>
>Viatcheslav Koudriavtsev
>Institute of Metahistory
>P.O. Box #1
>Moscow 117321 Russia
>
>L.I. Lobkovsky
>Deputy Director
>P.P. Shirshov Institute of Oceanology
>36 Nahimovsky prospect
>Moscow 117851 Russia
>
>Could you please forward this information to those of your colleagues in
>the U.K. who might be interested in this project.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Viatcheslav Koudriavtsev (vk@imh.ru)
>
>Director of the Institute of Metahistory,
>Member of the Russian Geographical Society
>of the Russian Academy of Sciences
>———————————————————————

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America’s Warrior Class … an historical question (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Sat Nov 15 16:35:39 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:33:16 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom7.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: Mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: America’s Warrior Class … an historical question (fwd)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>———- Forwarded message ———-
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:23:52 -0600 (CST)
>To: [a military history list]
>Subject: America’s Warrior Class
>
>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, [imbecile omitted] wrote:
> > How does one define a warrior class? What are the > characteristics? Is it the
> > Samurai and their code of Bushido? Something more or less? I find > it hard to
> > make the case that the United States ever had a warrior class. In fact, the
> > idea of a warrior class seems quaintly anachronistic in the 20th Century,
> > where warfare has been dominated by armies of mass conscription.
>
>Well, for those unfamiliar with our military history, we do have a
> warrior class… obviously: our national and domestic security
> communities.
>
>(While this post won’t address domestic security, the cinematic
> portrayal of police as “The New Centurions” is entirely valid.)
>
>A … the? … primary wellspring is the U.S. Military Academy, with its
> uncompromising warrior’s code of Duty, Honor, Country … *service*
> … however quaint or extreme an ideal that may seem to some.
>
>To quote the final address of one of our most illustrious warriors
> … whose words still echoed the halls, when I reported to the
> Academy on 1 July 1964 (for my half-year there):
>
> … From your ranks come the great captains who hold the
> Nation’s destiny in their hands the moment the war tocsin sounds.
> The long gray line has never failed us. Were you to do so, a
> million ghosts in olive drab, in brown khaki, in blue and gray,
> would rise from their white crosses, thundering those magic words:
> Duty, honor, country.
> ….
> In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry,
> the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening
> of my memory I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and
> re-echoes: Duty, honor, country.
> Today marks my final rollcall with you. But I want you to know
> that when I cross the river, my last conscious thoughts will be of
> the corps, and the corps, and the corps.
> I bid you farewell.
>
>Even Plato would have been impressed … and gratified to see the
> ethos of the guardian class so clearly yet passionately expressed
> by Douglas MacArthur. Of course, Patton expressed *his* warrior’s
> code far more … tersely … and believed his memory was immortal.
>
>Many of those kids in the Cadet Dining Hall with me … the August
> day when the Officer of the Day came on the public address system
> to announce that North Vietnamese torpedoboats had attacked our
> destroyers in the Tonkin Gulf *and the President would speak to
> the Nation* … are now only italicized entries in the REGISTER
> OF GRADUATES. Even in the 1980s, USMA scribes were still writing
> Corps obituaries for the young graduates who died on
> the Bataan Death March and in the Hell Ships.
>
>As to the Esprit du Corps of the Marines … which the ignorant and/or
> vicious might mock as “extreme” … it is all that has … at times
> … kept them going … in such remote American outposts as Wake,
> Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Cho’Sin, and countless besieged
> embassies.
>
>As to conscript armies, Argentina and Iraq have been utterly defeated
> by smaller, high-tech, professional military and naval forces in
> recent times. Mass military mobilization is now secondary … even
> counter-productive … in an era of high-tech mass destruction
> … just with “conventional” weapons. A thousand longships
> vs. one LA-class attack sub??
>
>I have known a U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant’s son whose dad was too
> proud to go on food stamps (in the ’60s) because his pay was so low.
> (My friend is an authority on the varieties and consumption of beans.)
>
>But not just neglect and ingratitude, but mockery and betrayal …
> of prisoners of war … of the ideals and causes … and symbols
> … men (and women) have dutifully, *faith*fully fought and died for
> … of the military’s moral values … martial virtues … which are
> essential to the warrior class’s social health and self-esteem …
> hurt — and destroy — far more deeply and permanently … to our
> ultimate doom.
>
>*Has* such contempt for the warrior class and ethos occurred before …
> in our society? … to such an extreme and calculated degree?
>
>This is the *historical* question which should clear the acceptability
> criteria of [that list] … and thus be confronting us.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
> www.wiu.edu/users/mslrc/

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

New naval resources online

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Sun Nov 16 07:43:43 1997
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:38:53 +0000
>From: “David L. Riley” >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: New naval resources online
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Fellow naval history enthusiasts,
>
> A number of new publications/documents now are available as resources
>on the homepage of the Naval Historical Center.
>
> — The text and selected photos from “By Sea, Air, and Land: An
>Illustrated History of the U.S. Navy and the War in Southeast Asia” by
>Dr. Edward J. Marolda can be accessed at
>http://www.history.navy.mil/seairland.
>
> — Dr. Vincent A. Transano’s 1997 history of the Seabees can be
>viewed at http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq67-1.htm. Dr. Transano is
>command historian of the Naval Facilities Engineering Command.
>
> — “The U.S. Navy in Operations Desert Shield/Desert Storm” can be
>accessed at http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm. Possibly the most
>valuable resource of this section is the day-by-day chronology of the
>campaign. Additionally, one appendix includes a listing of all naval
>units particpating in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. NOTE: The original
>document was published within six week of the cessation of hostilities,
>so there are some “fog of battle” inconsistencies present.
>
> Many other resources, incuding a compact Civil War naval chronology
>can be viewed in the “Wars and Conflicts” section at
>http://www.history.navy.mil/wars.
>
>Sincerely,
>David Riley
>
>
>

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Untitled

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Sun Nov 16 15:34:52 1997
>X-Sender: robbins@medusa.nn.com
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32)
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:28:15 -0600
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>From: Mark Spike Robbins
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Havent seen a post in here since I sub’ed…. test. test, test
>
>
>Sex is like pizza!
>When it’s good, its damn good,
>when its bad, its still pretty damned good……….
>
>Mark Robbins
>Visit the HobbyHQ website @ http://www.bestware.net/hobbyhq
>Visit the Unofficial VA-95 Green Lizard website @
>http://www.bestware.net/hobbyhq/lizard/va95main.htm

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Purpose
The Mahan Naval Discussion List hosted here at NavalStrategy.org is to foster discussion and debate on the relevance of Admiral Alfred Thayer Mahan's ideas on the importance of sea power influenced navies around the world.
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