From Thu Nov 20 05:41:24 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:41:27 -0500
>From: “Mark J.Perry” >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>
>Tom Robison wrote:
>
> > Tom Lewis wrote:
> >
> > >According to an article in this week’s Navy News (Australia), > the hulks are
> > >leaking oil and killing off local fishlife and coral. The > government there
> > >are appealling to the governments who “own” the ships for help.
> >
> > This brings up the age old question, who “owns” old wrecks. Once a wreck is
> > abandoned in international waters, it is fair game for salvage.
> >
> > But some of these ships are in Solomon Island waters. Are they still
> > considered fair game for salvage, are they property of the Solomons by
> > default, or do they still belong to the country who caused them > to be there?
> >
> > Which brings up another question. If the US and Japan are responsible, are
> > they responsible for their own ships, or each other’s? I.e., the US caused
> > the Japanese ships to be sunk, and the Japanese caused the Allied ships to
> > be sunk. So, are we responsible for bringing up the Japanese ships, and
> > vice-versa?
> >
> > Still sounds to me like a scam to fleece Uncle Sugar. How much oil can be
> > leaking? Yes, I know, the Arizona is still fouling Pearl Harbor, but how
> > serious can the pollution problem be in The Slot?
>
>Warships are always considered sovereign territory wherever they sink.
>Essentially, they are military cemetaries. There was a case off Newport, RI
>where divers brought up some remains from a sunken U-Boat. The >diplomatic flap
>was pretty hot and there was a military burial with full honors in Newport.
>
>Mark Perry

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From Thu Nov 20 07:23:47 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 09:05:21 EST
>From: Gordon Hogg
>Subject: Italian BB ROMA
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>X-Mailer: MailBook 96.02.327
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Folks:
> I’ve just been looking through Carlton Jackson’s new book _Forgotten
>Tragedy_ (Annapolis, Naval Institute Press, 1997) which is about the >sinking of
>HMT ROHNA in November 1943 by a German guided bomb (an Hs 293). He also makes
>mention of its armor-piercing “sister” bomb, the 1400X (or Fritz X), >noting its
>use against the ROMA in September 1943. So far, so good. He claims, however,
>that ROMA was sunk “after she had surrendered to the Allies and was was being
>towed into port.” The five or six accounts (U.S., British, Italian) >that I can
>trawl up immediately all indicate that she was underway–in earnest–with her
>sister BBs VENETO and ITALIA (and other ships) toward Malta when sunk.
>
>Has Jackson uncovered some new Mediterranean WWII lore, or is he somehow con-
>fusing the ROMA’s story with that of the incomplete Italian carrier AQUILA,
>which *was* subject to a tow or two. Beats me. Before I contact him (he’s
>right here in Kentucky, as it turns out) I’m just wondering if I’ve missed out
>on something all these years. I welcome any and all advice or comments.
>
> as ever,
> Gordon
>Gordon E. Hogg
>Special Collections and Archives
>University of Kentucky Libraries
>Lexington, KY 40506-0039
>606-257-9421

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From Thu Nov 20 14:41:59 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:39:40 -0500 (EST)
>From: MEMullen@aol.com
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re:Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>In a message dated 97-11-20 13:10:26 EST, tjohnson@adnetsol.com (Tracy
>Johnson) writes
>
>> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Eric Bergerud wrote:
>
> > BTW: who is using Kriegsmarine scrap from Scapa Flow?
> > Eric Bergerud, 531 Kains Ave, Albany CA 94706, 510-525-0930
>
> I don’t remember who but will look it up this evening, since I made that
> statement. A short article was published in a wargame magazine within the
> last two years in either “Command” or “Strategy & Tactics.”
>
> >>
>
>
>Command, but dont have the issue. The steel is used for specialized
>radiation shielding. All steel made since 1945 incorporates minute amounts
>of fallout, so the steel from Scapa Flow is very useful for shielding. It is
>the only large source which is not a war grave.
>
>BTW, it is not clear that the scuttling was illegal. The High Seas Fleet was
>interned, and had not surrendered. This fine point of law was lost on the
>British, who machine-gunned the crews who had taken to lifeboats.
>
>Mike Mullen, ETN2, USNR(Ret)

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From Thu Nov 20 15:57:24 1997
>X-Errors-To:
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:56:59 -0500 (EST)
>X-Sender: rickt@pop3.cris.com
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: rickt@cris.com (Eric Bergerud)
>Subject: Re:Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
> >
> >Command, but dont have the issue. The steel is used for specialized
> >radiation shielding. All steel made since 1945 incorporates minute amounts
> >of fallout, so the steel from Scapa Flow is very useful for > shielding. It is
> >the only large source which is not a war grave.
> >
> >BTW, it is not clear that the scuttling was illegal. The High > Seas Fleet was
> >interned, and had not surrendered. This fine point of law was lost on the
> >British, who machine-gunned the crews who had taken to lifeboats.
> >
> >Mike Mullen, ETN2, USNR(Ret)
> >
> >
>My command of the field of metallurgy is not encylopedic, but I am VERY
>skeptical about the radiation shielding. Iron ores or several types are very
>common and finding “uncontaminated” ore I should would be very easy. Up near
>my old stomping grounds near Ely Minnesota there is a ten story deep shaft
>into granite that was used to mine an extremely high quality ore. The tenth
>story is a popular tourist attraction (spooky) and on the 9th you will find
>DOE scientists carrying on VERY delicate experiments on sub-atomic particles
>because nine stories of granite, with a vein of iron ore running through it,
>provides some of the world’s best protection from ultra-violet rays
>(radiation) which might confuse their findings. The Scapa Flow bit sounds
>like one of those “urban legends” to me. If not, it would be one heck of a
>good bit of WWI trivia for us all to cherish.
>
>Speaking of which…did the RN REALLY machine gun German crews after they
>pulled the plug on the KM?
>Eric Bergerud, 531 Kains Ave, Albany CA 94706, 510-525-0930

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From Thu Nov 20 16:33:46 1997
>X-Sender: msmall@roanoke.infi.net
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32)
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:34:12 -0500
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: Marc James Small
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during
> Guadalc
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>At 03:19 PM 11/20/97 GMT, Bill Riddle wrote:
> > As lopng as we are addressing “fine points of law,” a friend just
> > pointed out to me that the crews, at that point, were no longer
> > “crews.” Rather, they were mutineers. Would admiralty law justify
> > blowing away mutineers?
>
>
>How were they mutineers? They were obeying the orders of their superior
>officers who were, in turn, obeying the orders sent them from Kiel. A copy
>of the radio message ordering this can be found in Roskill’s NAVAL POLICY
>BETWEEN THE WARS, Vol I.
>
>Marc
>
>
>msmall@roanoke.infi.net FAX: +540/343-7315
>Cha robh bas fir gun ghras fir!

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From Thu Nov 20 20:52:46 1997
>X-Sender: tcrobi@pop.mindspring.com
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:17 -0500
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: Tom Robison
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>James wrote:
> >Naval vessels are never abandoned and, by international agreement, > remain the
> >property of their country in perpetuity as military graves.
>
>Oh! I didn’t know that (obviously).
>
>
>Tom Robison
>Ossian, Indiana
>tcrobi@mindspring.com

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From Thu Nov 20 17:11:33 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:09:52 -0800
>From: Mike Potter
>Organization: Artecon, Inc.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Scapa Flow Scuttle
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Dan van der Vat mentions the uncomtaminated steel story in his =The
>Grand Scuttle=. Other pre-1945 ships don’t seem to get special attention
>for their steel when they are scrapped. =Coral Sea= is being scrapped
>now. Does her steel carry a premium?
>
>This legend might have started with a story that the U of Utah installed
>an armored section from USS =Indiana= around a radiological lab because
>it was uncontaminated (perhaps true but consistent with possible
>salesmanship by a lab staff competing for research grants).
>
>Ex-USS/KM =Prinz Eugen= remains unscrapped in shallow water because her
>steel is contaminated, supposedly by long use of radium dials on
>displays rather than from Bikini’s test Baker. USNIP had an article on
>this about 20 years ago. If radium dials were indeed a source of
>contamination, the Scapa Flow ships might have the same problem and
>therefore present more rather than less of a radiation hazard.
>
>Van der Vat’s book doesn’t mention retribution against the Germans by
>the British, other than they verbally denounced the German admiral who
>commanded the scuttling. The US Govt was happy to hear that the fleet
>was sunk since it removed an awkward point of contention with the
>British; check the NY Times for the days following the scuttling.
>
> > My command of the field of metallurgy is not encylopedic, but I am VERY
> > skeptical about the radiation shielding. Iron ores or several > types are very
> > common and finding “uncontaminated” ore I should would be very easy.
>
>–
>Michael C. Potter, Mgr, TelCo/Govt Programs mike.potter@artecon.com
>Artecon, Inc. | | mail PO Box 9000
>6305 El Camino Real -|- _|_ Carlsbad CA
>Carlsbad CA 92009 >_|_( |/_>ph 760-431-4465 >_III_ V|/ _III_ |/|_o fx 760-931-5527
> =-| L/_| _|____L_/_|==
> ___ ________|____-===L|_LL| -==| .___ |
> ___. __I____|_[_]_______|_____[__||____[_]_|__|_=====_|\__–+====–/
>\_____/|_|__| == 963 /
>|

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From Thu Nov 20 18:49:58 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:47:51 -0800
>From: Tracy Johnson
>Organization: Answers
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Eric Bergerud wrote:
> >
> > As it happens I talked about coral in the SOPAC with one of the bigwigs at
> > UC Berkeley last year and he tells me that experts are in despair > concerning
> > the subject.
>
>Yes but usually the politically correct hacks at Berkeley will also get
>into despair over the sight of red meat at a McDonalds, so who knows how
>important it really is?
>–
>Tracy Johnson
>Computer Associates International Inc.
>(Opinions expressed on public forums
>such as list-servers are mine and are
>not representative of my employer.)
>- – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
>(For interactive games…)
>Minister of Propaganda, Justin Thyme Productions
>tjohnson@adnetsol.com
>”Trust No One”
>”Semper Pollus”
> ADC-2239-5531

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From Thu Nov 20 20:52:46 1997
>X-Sender: tcrobi@pop.mindspring.com
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:55:17 -0500
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: Tom Robison
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
> >Yes but usually the politically correct hacks at Berkeley will also get
> >into despair over the sight of red meat at a McDonalds, so who knows how
> >important it really is?
>
>Now, Tracy, it’s not P.C. to demean the “politically correct hacks at
>Berkeley”.
>You might injure their self-esteem. ;>)
>
>
>Tom Robison
>Ossian, Indiana
>tcrobi@mindspring.com

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From Thu Nov 20 21:25:32 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:25:10 -0500
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Eric Bergerud wrote:
>
> > >
> > My command of the field of metallurgy is not encylopedic, but I am VERY
> > skeptical about the radiation shielding. Iron ores or several > types are very
> > common and finding “uncontaminated” ore I should would be very easy.
>
>….(largish snip)
>
>. The Scapa Flow bit sounds
> > like one of those “urban legends” to me. If not, it would be one heck of a
> > good bit of WWI trivia for us all to cherish.
>
>I have addressed this bit once before. There are two problems with
>newly dug iron ores – fallout and a practice of using radiation
>sources for measurements in the blast furnaces, not a technology
>employed until after WW2. The smelting process blows air through the ore
> mix and the air bears the minute quantities of contaminants. Radiation
>sheilding made from old armor is cut straight from plates without
>remelting/resmelting.
>
>The expalnation of this I found in:
>
>THE SOPHISTICATED LADY: THE BATTLESHIP _INDIANA_ IN WORLD WAR TWO, by
>Myron J Smith, Jr.; Ft Wayne Public Library, 1973.
>
>”Some 210 tons of her plate now forms a lead-lined laboratroy for
>radiation research under the lawn of the medical center at Salt Lake
>City, Utah. It was chosen because it was free from cobalt-60, now
>present in steel blast furnaces as an indicator, which could effect
>(sic) those sensitivbe experiments involving the measurement of
>radioactivity. Another 65 tons of her armor serves a similar purpose at
>the Veteran’s Administration Hospital in hines, Illinois.” He has a
>reference to the Navla histoprical Center’s HISTORIC SHIP EXHIBITS IN
>THE UNITED STATES, of 1969, which was also partly or entirey published
>as an appendix in a DANFS volume.”
>
>(Myron SMith later became the author of several books on the slow
>older battleships, published in a long softbound format like Squadron
>’In Action’ series. with names like KEYSTONR STATE BATTLEWAGON,
>MOUNTAINEER STATE BNATTLEWAGON, etc.)
>
>Brooks A Rowlett

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